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[AMA] LEC SPRING 2023- Ask your questions now!

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OfficialFnatic's avatarOfficial FnaticOfficial@OfficialFnatic• 02/03/2023

[AMA] LEC SPRING 2023- Ask your questions now!

LEC AMA TWITTER.png

Our League operations team is hosting an AMA this evening.

:fnatic: When: Thursday, 2nd March, at 19:00 CET

:fnatic: Where: Official Fnatic Twitch

:fnatic: Who:

  • Pete Nguyen - Host Twitter

  • Stuart Brown - Esports Operations Lead Twitter

  • Patrik Sattermon - Chief Gaming Officer Twitter

  • League of Legends Head Coach

⚠️ Please make sure to direct your questions to a speaker!

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Comments

Avatar for Jdoki
JdokiPioneer Key Holder@Jdoki• 03/03/2023
Loading...Coaches normally bring a style to the table in how they want the game played and build on that split after split based on player strengths. But we seem to just shake up the roster in a way that almost feels random, and hoping it'll work out this time when things go bad. For example: When we had Upset / Hyli we played strong Bot lane, but rarely strong Mid despite having Huma. We couldn't adapt well. Last split we ditched the strong Bot, and went with weak Top side, weak Bot side, and Carry Mid when it is clear we have no Mid/Jungle synergy? We also played aggressive early when drafting scaling. Next split we look to be going carry Top, while still having poor Mid/Jungle synergy and weak Bot side What is the core FNC identity of the team / style of play we should be building on? And who is leading the LoL team as a whole to embed the style / culture into the team / org?
Avatar for Jdoki
JdokiPioneer Key Holder@Jdoki• 03/03/2023
Loading...@patrik With the utter lack of success since 2018 it has been pretty clear that we were starting to nosedive as we have not been addressing key areas year after year. Why has it taken so long, and been allowed to get so bad before senior/central management stepped in?
Avatar for Jdoki
JdokiPioneer Key Holder@Jdoki• 03/03/2023
Loading...@Patrik / Stuart. When you see players on other teams, such as MAD and G2, they are having fun playing the game and appear more relaxed. FNC players seem more stressed - not just during the bad times, but even when winning. It comes across as FNC being a bit more 'corporate' Is this something that FNC acknowledges, or agrees with? And what will be done about it? People more closely linked to LoL say the training environment is not good, that management doesn't invest in the team, FNC is profit driven at the expense of players. It doesn't paint a good picture and is not something that we hear about in other orgs anywhere near as much.
Avatar for Jenrang
Jenrang@Fake-Love• 02/03/2023
Loading...Mental health is important, is there any help for this? sometimes you look at the players and they don't feel good, as happened with Rekkles recently, is there assistance regarding his mental health?
Avatar for Laserjaws
Laserjaws@Laserjaws• 02/03/2023
Loading...@Carn I watched your reflections video with Thorin (from a few years ago) and found the part of the discussion you had with him about in game leaders in LoL particularly interesting. Could you share your thoughts on the need (or the lack of a need) for an in-game leader in LoL and whether that is something that has been considered with these players. If it hasn't, will it be something highlighted moving forwards? @Pete Do you prefer working in Berlin or London?
Avatar for hannie
hannie@itzhannie• 02/03/2023
Loading...To the head coach, MSI will be held in London this year. If the league of legends team does not qualify for MSI, are there any plans to bootcamp in London? With the top teams in the world coming to the UK where Fnatic’s HQ is located it would be a great opportunity for the team to practice and bootcamp.
Avatar for Zaydaah
Zaydaah@Zaydaah• 02/03/2023
Loading...With all the recent and reccuring Dramas involing all sides of the LoL team (managerial and Competitive) plus the negative results and title drought, are you afraid that finding new players will be harder ? We saw as many players expressed their fear of joining Fnatic and “potentially ruining their careers". Do you feel this from managerial side, as now many players may only want to come for money ?
Avatar for Toralin
ToralinRat Army@Toralin• 02/03/2023
Loading...Patrik: Why we have never seen anyone from the squad streaming on a regular base in a long time and why none played Champions Q?
Avatar for Sano
Sano@Sano• 02/03/2023
Loading...@HeadCoach, but others may also add ideas, as its more of a structural question: 1. In the past we heard reoccurring themes when it came to solving problems. For the last 3 or 4 years, it seemed like every season the answer to issues were "band-aid"-fixes, to the point I feel like they accumulated to an unmanageable amount. Equally as often we heard that players were not able to agree on how the game is supposed to be played. ***Can we expect a change in mentality on how issues are tackled, outside and inside of the game? If so, are there already any ideas on how to achieve that or how to improve the training environment?*** @Stuart or Patrick, whoever has more input: 2. I am also interested in how the mental support will look like in the future for players and staff. ***Will there be a whole infrastructure or will it be lead by one professional alone, who will be close to the team, as it was the case until now? Will there be other new additions to the staff in general, now or in the near future?***
Avatar for Cier96
Cier96Pioneer Key Holder@Cier96• 02/03/2023
Loading...When will you try yorick support the cage is pretty nutty
Avatar for FnaticFan4ever
FnaticFan4ever@FnaticFan4ever• 02/03/2023
Loading...Hey everyone. Question for cArn, did Fnatic try to get Peter Dun or Kaas? Peter Dun especially has a ton of league experience and especially roster building expirience. Kaas was part of MAD coaching staff and also has some experience. Both of these seem like good additions to the coaching staff of a team and I am wondering if Fnatic approached them during off season. Thank you.
Avatar for xNDO
xNDOCore Key Holder@Ryan• 02/03/2023
Loading...New Coach: I believe team cohesion plays a huge role in any team sport. Each member has to want to play for every other member and then together as one solid unit. I've not felt this from FNC league team for a while, it all feels very individual or groups of 2/3. How do you plan to bring this WHOLE team together and get them playing for and with each other?
Avatar for jchavez
jchavez@jchavez• 02/03/2023
Loading...To STU: This has been a disappointing split, but it seems this is the result of bad splits doing wrong decisions. Chruser leaving, Upset benched and refusing to play this split, and Wunder too, multiple good players choosing other teams over fnatic, not winning a LEC since 2018 I guess. Have you identified the origin of these mismanagement decisions? Because It's clearly not a roster or team problem, this is an upper management issue and it's sad to see leave good players and coaches. We have had multiple years without fixing this issues and I don't think we would win anything again if we are only moving players.and staff members. I love Fnatic, and I hope we could be the greatest team again! ❤️
Avatar for fnaticFan3307
fnaticFan3307@fnaticFan3307• 02/03/2023
Loading...I am a fan of reading through opinions on reddit or looking at other content from players and Fnatic themselves. My question to cArn: As a Fnatic fan, why does it feel like Fnatic hasn't been treating its players well lately? Context from the fans point of view, but no questions per se: - Nemesis learned during Worlds that he was being replaced. - Rekkles learned during Split that there were talks with Upset, even though it was promised that Rekkles would play. - Bwipo, Nisqy, Adam learn relatively late that Upset is not playing. The reason was given, but way way too late. - It came out that Selfmade was forced onto the team even though some were clearly against it. - Rhuckz should play Worlds because management demanded it. - Upset doesn't want to play with you. Wunder doesn't either. There is something wrong internally. Again, this is just a view of a fan with little to no context. - Upset has complained about bad training environment. - Many members, recently Rekkles, have consistently demanded better training. G2 has done xx scrims and written down how many times another team was asked and how many times turned down. FNC has been asked Z times and turned down Z times. - I have a perception towards more of a negative side of fnatic rather than a positive one.
Avatar for darwin
darwinOfficial@darwin• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn: What’s your favorite Swedish fika?
Avatar for Legacyoo
Legacyoo@Legacyoo• 02/03/2023
Loading...obvouisly dissapointed about the winter split ,what do we expect from the next split always fnatic
Avatar for Tormes
Tormes@Tormes• 02/03/2023
Loading...To carn: My impression with the content we receive and what we can read and listen from other teams is that FNC as been strungling the past years with scrims. How do you plan to improve our scrims and team enviroment? Why we where the last team to start scrims this winter? Why we dont scrim in europe pre worlds last year? (https://twitter.com/Odoamne/status/1573076969860001792?s=20)
Avatar for Colin
ColinCo-owner@GC79• 02/03/2023
Loading...To Nightshare, do you feel good about the upcoming split from the energy of the new roster and how has everyone gelled together so far if you've have the chance to get working!
Avatar for CoCratzY
CoCratzY@CoCratzY• 02/03/2023
Loading...Two questions for both cArn and STU, it's not about LEC but more about Fnatic on LoL : - Does FNC have any plans for having academy in LFL too ? Is it possible ? I remember Sam talking about it last year. LFL is the only place to be in ERL if you guys really want to work with the academy. Not only in term of competitivity, but also and especially in term of profesionalism. - Do you think the academy has achieved the expected objectives ? I feel like moving from NLC to LVP was not the best idea, after three splits, only the spring split 2022 was good. But even if FNC academy is not working so good in LVP, the main team has 2x more "contact" / "relation" with the academy than in the past when it was in NLC. (Sometimes for unexpected event like worlds 22 / 23, but also right now with Rhuckz / Crusher and Oscarinin / Advienne).
Avatar for Colin
ColinCo-owner@GC79• 02/03/2023
Loading...@lol head coach: Has a clear play style / win condition been found that suits the team we built for this split? I feel like a big part of our struggle was lack of a true carry / consistent path to Victory, don't need details or anything just a generic positive/negative response. Looking forward to this split, planning on travelling out! 😊🖤🧡
Avatar for Jhin Wick IV
Jhin Wick IVCore Key Holder@JhinWickIV• 02/03/2023
Loading...Question for Patrik: What led to making the decision for benching Wunder?
Avatar for Luke
Luke@Luke• 02/03/2023
Loading...To Stuart/Patrik; What is happening with Wunder & Rhuckz? Are they just being benched or are they being made free agents?
Avatar for AkiTsugane
AkiTsugane@Akihide• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn/STU: Can we have a complete organizational chart of Fnatic lol-related? It is increasingly hard and confusing to understand what are Fnatic actions on the staff/management side of the operations, and those are important to an esport team success. For example we now know Sens isn't in Fnatic anymore, but we actually have no clue if there's any replacement and who is working with the players in general.
Avatar for Breakie
Breakie@Breakie• 02/03/2023
Loading...To Pete: On majority do you have to kidnap players for content or are they quite willing to participate, Who is the easiest player to get to do content and your favourite peace you have done. To cArn: With the poor standings we have reached of late in LoL have you brought anything from Valorant or CS that was lacking in the LoL?
Avatar for AkiTsugane
AkiTsugane@Akihide• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn/Nightshare : Fnatic LoL Division is being restructured and it's been openly explained in cArn Twitter thread that this offseason leaves us with very few possibilities and we took the changes we could among them. How do you plan on making the players adhere to the Fnatic mindset and expectations since they pretty much know they are just here until better market opportunities arise?
Avatar for AkiTsugane
AkiTsugane@Akihide• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn : You said on the Discord that Dardo is the "hardest working colleague you've ever worked with". In the meantime, no one can deny that the LoL division he is the Director of had extremely bad results, and worrying management system that make players reluctant to sign here. Since Dardo is still (allegedly) in the org, does that mean that working hard makes you unaccountable for extremely bad results? With the ever growing anger against Dardo on the socials and the total silence about it ever since the season ended, it feels like Fnatic heads refuse to openly talk about the matter. Since the topic of this AMA is transparency, I'd hope you could answer this question. Thanks.
Avatar for AkiTsugane
AkiTsugane@Akihide• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn : Psychology and reputation are key in the modern esport environment, both from team cohesion and to sign up players that aren't your 6th choices. For the psychology part: Other orgs seem to have been able to build cohesion consistently, such as G2, despite many player changes. Why Fnatic doesn't have someone like Romain Bigeard who is one of the reason of G2 recent success? For the reputation part: how do you plan to rebuild Fnatic LOL Division reputation after terrible management issues that put off rookies and bad results in the rift?
Avatar for Anivers Kun
Anivers KunPioneer Key Holder@Anivers-Kun• 02/03/2023
Loading...What is the goal for the next split?
Avatar for AkiTsugane
AkiTsugane@Akihide• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn : Many promising rookies recently refused Fnatic because they heard bad stuff about the management and/or were afraid a bad split could kill their career. We also heard many former players tackling the management in public, the mediocre training among other things. You claim you and your team are taking over the LoL Division from now on. How do you plan on making it public that the former management isn't deciding anymore (if that's true), so that Fnatic becomes attractive again for players?
Avatar for karnaI0
karnaI0@karnaI0• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cARN: Are you now taking a more hands on approach to the LoL team like you did with Valorant and CS? And what would you say went wrong in the off-season, and would you have done things differently if you had the information you have now? To STU: Are there going to be any significant changes in the decision makers and the decision making process of the LoL team + What is Dardo's role going to be? To Head Coach: Do you have a say in the roster changes made? + Do you think you can make worlds this year? And is this project a long term one or a short term one dead ending at the end of the year? To Pete: We love you.
Avatar for Brysoo
BrysooPioneer Key Holder@brysoo• 02/03/2023
Loading...To Carn and Stuart: while YamatoCannon was the coach we often complained about the lack of support staff. Over the last few months we have gotten rid of 2 support staff members: fab and now sens. This brings our current coach to a spot where they have a similar if not a lower number of support staff to Yamato. What are we doing to make sure our new coach is properly supported and that we have a lower turnover of support staff especially in light of public leaks about how our 2021 analyst tolki left us as he felt unsupported?
Avatar for Eledjiak
Eledjiak@Eledjiak• 02/03/2023
Loading...Hi, to Carn : — How does central PG works ? — What happens with Dardo if Carn is the one taking the decisions now ? (Welcome back btw) — Can you elaborate on the team's scouting process for potential new players/coaches ? — What steps are taken to ensure player health and wellness during the season ? — How does the team handle conflicts or disagreements between players or staff members ? (These last 2 points are issues that are coming up again and again after years.) — How has the team's long-term vision and goals evolved over the past 3 years, and how is progress towards those goals tracked and evaluated? In your opinion, has the team made significant strides towards achieving its goals, taking into account the journey as a whole rather than just the results? To Pete : — Keep it up, we understand that it may be a difficult moment, but we truly appreciate your efforts and want you to know that you are valued.
Avatar for copacu13
copacu13@copacu13• 02/03/2023
Loading...To anyone that manages this topic. Do the players go out toghether? Grab some beers or juices in some pub and talk about life stuff, non-related to the job. In my experience these activities create bonds between people, not hiring people who make your team stand in a circle and hold hands. They should party a bit, a barbeque, a movie, a concert. That helps more than any work related activity.
Avatar for chemery
chemeryPioneer Key Holder@chemery• 02/03/2023
Loading...Love what fnatic does for its community, feels like things have really levelled up the past couple years. I bet there's way more improvements behind the scenes we don't see! So my question is how are our eSports teams levelling up compared to the competition? 🔥
Avatar for SE Snorlax
SE SnorlaxFirst Blood@SE-Snorlax• 02/03/2023
Loading...Posting for people on reddit, that are sadly unable to post themselves, for whatever reason: From u/Bringerofmist To the Head-Coach: As has been previously mentioned by multiple members of the team, currently and in the past, the overall practice environment seems to have been poor. What changes have been done and are currently adapted to change the practice environment towards a better place? From u/alexgh0st to Patrik: To play the devil's advocate, what is about the practice environment and managenent exactly that made Upset not want to play for FNC as the rumours say?
Avatar for Kaptiv3
Kaptiv3Core Key Holder@Kaptiv3• 02/03/2023
Loading...To Pete: how did you learn filmmaking and what’s the best way to start with limited equipment and knowledge.
Avatar for Sextiz
Sextiz@Sextiz• 02/03/2023
Loading...To c4rn: Did you approach this rebuilding like you did in csgo? Focusing more in players that get along good outside the game, improving the atmosphere etc instead of signing big names all over again? Is this rebuild focusing in a long term project with this roster (giving them enough room to grow) or just a patch for this year and we can expect huge changes by the end of the year? Thanks
Avatar for Stubrochill17
Stubrochill17@Stubrochill17• 02/03/2023
Loading...To (mainly cArn and Stu): What are the plans for rebuilding the reputation that we’ve lost over the years? Not talking about hiring/firing anyone specifically, but what methods will the org use to get back into the good favors of fans, broadcast, other orgs, pro players etc. Lots of recent news is people just exposing things Fnatic has done to ruin its reputation and there has to be a plan to “un-do” that damage. Something other than “we will provide everything to our LoL team to succeed and aim for winning the LEC!!” I mean no flame by this question, I’m just a very concerned die hard fan and I hate the public perception of the org right now. So what’s it gonna be?
Avatar for Kylkiviipale
Kylkiviipale@Kylkiviipale• 02/03/2023
Loading...**To cArn: As a former player how would you consider team spirit is made or nurtured? Is it more created by players, made possible by management, or something/someone else?** Why I am asking this is, many of the teams that work well are known for having good atmospheres (like G2, MAD) and we are maybe rumored or known for having a more business-oriented or lacking atmosphere. Some say it is due to not living in a gaming house, some say it is purely on single players making the feeling. What are your thoughts?
Avatar for Akeideu
Akeideu@Akeideu• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn: As Sens announced he wont continue in the team, we would lack a psychologist. Are you guys considering a replacement already? To Nightshare/cArn: Are we going to finally change our approachment to training overall? It sucks that we're always starting scrimming late with no bootcamps when that usually make wonders to some teams. It looks like we're always late for everything and it's a bit depressing that we fans just hear rumours about awful practice and bad environment
Avatar for Yz0ro
Yz0ro@Yz0ro• 02/03/2023
Loading...Fnatic had fundemental issues for 3 years in a row in the LoL department - what measurements are being put in place to avoid / limit this going forward? Years ago Fnatic mentioned in an AMA to set-up a scouting environment for young players in Asia - how come nothing has come of this? To follow-up on the second point: why is Fnatic limiting itself to the European market & not considering the Asian market (seizable size of talents & historical success with it)?
Avatar for SrCalcetinos
SrCalcetinosFnatic Plus@SrCalcetinos• 02/03/2023
Loading...To whomever can answer it: Why the approach of firing everyone if you thought this was a good idea? Wouldn't it be better to, taking advantage of the new format, do a hard bootcamp in Korea and trust the decisions you made over the long market period instead of these quick last minute desperate decisions?
Avatar for FNC Lodi
FNC LodiCore Key Holder@FNCLodi• 02/03/2023
Loading...to the new head coach: does love/loyalty to a team matter when assembling a roster? for example if a prospect expresses love for a team. does a team concider that in it’s dicision?
Avatar for Papin
Papin@Papin• 02/03/2023
Loading...The question we all want answered: To cArn (I guess) : did you fire Dardo after his 3 years of disastrous team management? Good luck to everyone, I hope real plans to lift the team back up are in place and that you will be successful
Avatar for S0LOB0LO
S0LOB0LO@S0LOB0LO• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn: What things could you have done different yourself? To Stuart Brown: How does your experience translate to your work at Fnatic? To Head Coach: What is your coaching philosophy?
Avatar for nZenn
nZennPioneer Key Holder@nZenn• 02/03/2023
Loading...To cArn, What do you belive to be the most important focus for the rebuild if you could only pick one?
Avatar for Tryonix
Tryonix@Tryonix• 02/03/2023
Loading...Towards Nightshare. One of the few things that is known about you, is how well you developped at the beginning of their career many Czech and Slovak talents such as Humanoid, Patrik, Denyk, Kamilius,... So what is your method for helping a young player reach his highest potential? And if the rumor that we have a new top laner rookie is true (Oscarinin), how will you help him integrate into the team and build his confidence? (we want to see his Fiora, EU Jayce, Gwen,...)
Avatar for FNCGazelle
FNCGazelle@FNCGazelle• 02/03/2023
Loading...To everyone, please support your players, its not acceptable that Rekkles was crying on stream becouse he felt so bad after the split and his situation. Get a psychologist to help the players deal with their struggles 🤍 Much love
Avatar for Zood
Zood@Zood• 02/03/2023
Loading...For at least 3 years the team has been surrounded by drama each off-season. My perception is that the processes inside the LEC team are not working and management is too slow adapt. Will there be an overhaul of processes and staff in the LEC team?
Avatar for CRex
CRexFirst Blood@CRex• 02/03/2023
Loading...Are you convinced that this roster can reach Worlds? What would be the goal for the 2023 season? How soon would you plan to compete for the LEC again?
Avatar for James
James@James• 02/03/2023
Loading...For Stu, although opinions from both would be awesome: The new facilities introduced last year are an important step, given how crucial the training environment is to performance (more and more data in psychology to show this). But they feel a bit soulless, the lighting is oppressive, the rooms seem echoey and cold, the whole vibe seems very sort of corporate machine, where you reluctantly go to work. **Do you think there is more to be done to make sure the facilities can be __both__ comforting and energising for players?** Edit: Obviously I haven't experienced firsthand what it's like to work there, and it's certainly great that we have these kinds of dedicated facilities.
Avatar for Swallaspaa
SwallaspaaOfficial@Swallaspaa• 02/03/2023
Loading...@James Hi, Pete here from the League team. We're going to focus on Winter Split and the rest of the season in the AMA so just wanted to answer this here. I work in the Berlin facility everyday and I can tell you, it's an absolute upgrade from what we had before. Whilst it may looks bare and "cold" as you say in content and videos, it's actually a great place to work. We have a racing sim, consoles, ping pong, nice kitchen, family dining area, gym, shower and just heaps of room for activities. There are huge windows with lots of natural light coming in, ventilators or circulate air and keep it fresh and the best internet in Berlin. There's really nothing to complain about from an employee standpoint. I do agree that it could use some work in making feel like home but it's deinitely being worked on by a dedicated facility manager so rest assured it's a work-in-progress but still already very impressive!
Avatar for Merivan
Merivan@Merivan• 02/03/2023
Loading...Towards cArn (Patrick) What has changed between end of winter split and now in terms of Practice Culture, Team Structure and overall what kind of changes will be / had been made in the past weeks to ensure that FNC can once again be a healthy and in the long term succesful organization in the LEC.
Avatar for Forever-A-Yordle
Forever-A-Yordle@Forever-A-Yordle• 02/03/2023
Loading...What's happening in the botlane going forward? Rekkles support?
Avatar for Prawdziwy | LIDER Fan #1
Prawdziwy | LIDER Fan #1Fnatic Plus@Prawdziwy• 02/03/2023
Loading...Can you answer somehow on the off-season situation? There was a lot of leaks or former players/coaches perspective about Fnatic but in a negative way. Can you give some insights on Rekkles situation? On his last stream, he said a couple of worrying words(like this with Upset talks) And is Rekkles doing okay? I'm curious if he worked with a psychologist after this situation, this looked like this was a tough moment for him.
Avatar for Ene
EneRat Army@Ene• 02/03/2023
Loading...How is gonna be made sure that the players are on one page on how to play the game and not having the situation again where people dont agree with eachother. How is made sure and what changes have been made that Rekkles his point of not improving in winter split will not happen again in spring split
Avatar for JOBIRL
JOBIRL@JOBIRL• 02/03/2023
Loading...Towards Stuart Brown and Lol management After seeing how poor or unexpected the Winter split has been for the Lol Team. How going into the spring Split will there be a improvement. Of course starting X couches or players will be brought in will surely help. but based from aticles, reddit posts and even livestreams from players. There seemed to be a internal issues regards how the Team functioned, agreeing on certain aspects or just not practicing enough in preparation. Any insight how this time it is being different. Are Scrims etc. being taken seriously for a schedule or how is internal management actually trying to improve to environment to produce a better result then what Winter split. How are players taking this drastic change going forward.
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1FreshBanana1Moderator@1FreshBanana1• 02/03/2023
Loading...Will we change the "no bootcamp" approach of the years before?
Avatar for Frisky
FriskyFirst Blood@Frisky• 02/03/2023
Loading...How has the recent placing motivated the team or individual players to improve and what steps have been taken to make sure improvement can occur?
Avatar for Prawdziwy | LIDER Fan #1
Prawdziwy | LIDER Fan #1Fnatic Plus@Prawdziwy• 02/03/2023
Loading...Which player surprised/impressed you the most? How looks the average day of players?(I guess it's scheduled) What atmosphere is currently in a team? How are scrims going?
Avatar for Meerk4t
Meerk4t@Meerk4t• 02/03/2023
Loading...Why did you try to get upset again after giving rekkles the assurance you won't? One of many things that are hard to understand ethically.
Avatar for owenmelbz
owenmelbzOfficial@owenmelbz• 02/03/2023
Loading...What do you think will be the biggest difference in approach to this split compared to previous?